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  #1  
Old 11-15-2007, 06:10 PM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Line wrapping around guide during cast

Hi everybody. I'm a surf fisherman who fishes from Cape Henlopen De to the OBX. I just stumbled on this site and decided to sign up.


Has anyone ever had this problem?

Numerous times lately I have had line wrapped around the second or third eye from the tip after realy laying into an OTG cast. The rod I'm having problems with is a medium action 14' spinning rod. I'm using 30# super braid tied to 40# mono shock leader using a uni to uni knot. I don't have this problem with my set ups rigged the same reels leader and line. The eyes are all in alignment on the rod. Does anyone know what could be causing this problem?


Thanks
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2007, 07:25 PM
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Jimmy Z Jimmy Z is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

The rod either has to much bend on the load and/or there is too much play in the line on the load. IMO
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2007, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

There are a number of factors that are coming into play - guide size, location and style. Chances are there isn't going to be an easy fix for this unless you can strip and replace two or three guides yourself (or have a friend do it)

It's pretty much a given that the rod is built using the old cone theory design and the line is piling up and overshooting a guide. It is a bit unusual to have it happen on two guides though.

Cone method means that you start with a large first guide, 50 to 70 ring, then gradually reduce the size over the next few guides. It was created before the advent of braid and has been around since spinning reels were first introduced. The line is gradually choked down with the friction spread over 3 or 4 guides

Hard choke is also called the Lowrider method or the Dual purpose method (because you can use a spinning reel or conventional reel) and in a slightly different configuration (higher framed guides), the Fuji New Concept guide system. This method chokes the line hard on the first guide, never any more then a 30 ring, then shoots it out with minimal friction on the remaining guides. This has been developing over the past few years and only works with braided lines.

With modern braid it's been proven that one hard choke then a straight run gives better casting distance then the cone method.

To help figure out your problem we need to answer a few questions.

Types ? (I have a hunch that you have a 70 ring wire stripper guide on a cone method rod)
How far from the reel seat is the stripper, stripper to second guide, second to third..............
What are the guide sizes
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2007, 04:25 PM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Thanks for the replies

I think Jimmy may be right re: the rod bending too much during the load. I don't have the problem when throwing weights in the mid to lower end of the rod's range, and I don't have the problem when I am not going for maximum distance. The tip of the rod is alot less stiff than the other rods I throw.
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Old 11-16-2007, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Again, that's because your only over-running the guide when you're throwing hard. Flex of the rod isn't the issue, speed of the line at the guide and it's ability to pass through without piling up and over-runnng is.

You have two choices - stop throwing hard or figure out where it's over-running and fix it.
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2007, 06:51 PM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Is the speed of the line really that much different when casting a four ounce weight as opposed to a 6 oz weight when the same amount of force is put into each cast?
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Yup

Mass X Energy = Velocity
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

i wonder if he changed from 30 to say 50-65, would it slow the line down a little to compensate or is the guide issue still going to pull line that way? i would think the distance would be a little less but the what if factor perplexes me (along with you not coming to the hook my good buddy)



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Old 11-17-2007, 06:49 AM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Force = mass times acceleration........F=ma


Velocity = distance/time

The velocity component is contained in the (a) acceleration variable. If the force is the same, a larger mass means the acceleration would decrease, not increase.





Say you casted with a force of 100 ft/lbs.....


100 ft lbs= 4 oz times (a) >>>>>>>>100=4a >>>>>>>a= 25


vs 100 ft lbs= 6oz times (a)>>>>>>>>100=6a>>>>>>>>>a= 16.6667




Doesn't this prove the acceleration is less with a larger weight than a smaller weight if the force remains constant? It is clear that the 'a' variable has to be smaller when a mass of 6 is used instead of a mass of 4.
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2007, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabcaf
Doesn't this prove the acceleration is less with a larger weight than a smaller weight if the force remains constant?
Hi CABCAF
Welcome btw. I dont know the answer to this for sure but check this out.
Your hypothesis is correct I think in a vacuum experiment but once you factor in air resistance and the parobolic gravitational effect where the accelleration is the same for both objects it changes.
Projectile Motion Experiment
Change the angle to 45 degress and do the experiment without air resistence with 2 different masses. Then check the air resistence button and re do the experiment. It would stand to reason that if the heavier weight is traveling further with the same force it has to be moving faster.
Wish i could help with the rod question.
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  #11  
Old 11-17-2007, 01:34 PM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

SJ, I tried to open the link and run the program but it did not work.

The 6 oz sinker would have more air resistance than the 4 oz sinker, causing it to go slower with the same force applied to it.

If you pushed a 3000 lb car with a 5000 foot pound force, would it go further than a 2000lb car pushed with a 5000lb force?

I do not believe that the laws of physics change in a vacuum. The coefficient of friction changes, but the laws of physics do not.
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Old 11-17-2007, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

CBF Your correct. The heavier weight would need more force to go the same distance. An easy example is throwing a 1 ounce weight - verses 20 ounces. The projectile motion experiment doesnt take into account force appled. Only the velocity as constant and the angle. To get a constant velocity you would have to apply more force. If equal force is applied to both casts i would surmize that as Jimmy says the rod flexes too much.
I should stick to what i know.
Khary is the physics major. Not I.

The program page may take a while to load. it loads for me quickly.
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  #13  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

vs 200 ft lbs= 8oz times (a)>>>>>>>>200=8a>>>>>>>>>a= 18887

http://www.noplacelikeoz.com/oz-THD.wav



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  #14  
Old 11-18-2007, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Have you tried stiffer (mono) line on this rig?
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  #15  
Old 11-18-2007, 06:56 PM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLOATSUM View Post
Have you tried stiffer (mono) line on this rig?


For the running line? No. I'll switch reels next time and give it a try though.


I can live with not casting this rig for max. distance. I used it yesterday and had no problems casting it about 100 yards.
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