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Leaders? - just not "seaing" it

6K views 30 replies 11 participants last post by  MasterBaiter 
#1 ·
Getting back into my surf casting roots from my childhood (30+ years ago). This site has been invaluable in picking up pieces of info, from the new ideas and techniques, to relearning how to tie basic knots - remember it's been a while for me.

One thing I just don't get is using a leader for Stripers (shock leader or other). With so much talk regarding the Stripers stealthiness and ability to see the fishing line, isn't laying out a 60# piece of line basically advertising your presence? Even the 40#+ line on a typical rig seems like it would be visible.

I'm assuming that the response will be that, for what ever reason, a 60# piece of mono will not bee seen. If that is the case, how about going with a 45# black wire leader? Is a "thinner" black leader still more visible?

And finally - does anyone pre-tie there own leaders? Get a bunch of 60# leaders tied with a snap on one end, and a swivel on the other. Easy switching between mono and wire leaders during the day?

Actually one last question, assuming that there may be Blues in the area, if you were to start the day casting with a few lures, would you start with a wire leader, or go with the mono and wait to see if the Blues really are hitting (wait to loose your favorite popper)?

Really appreciate all that everyone has done to contribute to this site.
Thanks

HK
 
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#2 ·
Howie.
The heavy leader helps prevent cutoffs from fish and structure. It also helps in landing a bigger fish. They have a
tendency to roll when they get close to shore and will cut your line with the gill plate.
In clear water I will go with a flourocarbon leader. Bends light closer to the refractory index of water.
I dont use good plugs for casting near bluefish. They'll take anything. Ill move or throw metal.
I have never used wire for throwing a plug. My feeling is the less hardware on the line the better.
Id also like to hear what some of the more experienced plug casters say about this if they will chime in.

When baitcasting
I have used steel at night without any problems when the fish are agressive and feeding. But i dont usually use wire.
Ill use circle hooks snelled to 3 feet of line when blues are about. I personally have less bite offs using that method.
 
#3 ·
I've also gotten to using swivels only on spin gear. No snaps, just tye direct.
60# leader is definately up for debate with no definable answer.
I use a 20/25# leader on my fly gear with very limited concerns with breaking off.
As mentioned, flouro is nice but expensive.
I'll use 40 / 50 / 60 # bulky diameter leaders in rocks etc. Not for the strength, but for the chaff resistance. Also use a leader/shocker for weight and bait, or live lining eels.
I run 17# mono on plug casting. Tye direct up to 2 1/2 - 3 oz. after that I'll use a shock leader. Some folks use a shock leader then a heavier leader to the plug. I just don't. Can't understand why one would want anouther knot in the system to fail or contend with. But that's just me. I think most folks do use the double leader for whatever reason.
Most my fishing is 80% conventional, 15+% fly, maybe 5% spin.
As for pre-tying, only on my fly stuff and mostly for droppers.
For conventional, once the leader comes off, it gets trashed, never to see water again (cheap insurance). Like I said, no snaps, no swivels, no problem.
If there's Blues around,,, I either run like hell,,, or go with the 50# chaffin leader.
I've not used wire since the 70's. hello.gif
 
#4 ·
I appreciate the reply and info guys.
FLOATSUM - you bring up a point that I hadn't thought of, which also relates directly to "can they see it". If using a heavy shock leader, what's the point of another leader to the plug? If I were to go with a 40 or 60# shock leader, can I tie right off to the plug or do I now need to "step it down" so that the leader is not visable? I've also read, as you mentioned, about people going with a larger test line from the shock leader to plug - to me that sounds like you might as well attach a metal chain to the plug.

StriperJim - are you using a shock leader AND the 3 foot leader when Blues are hitting? Test?

Question on this one FLOATSUM - "I run 17# mono on plug casting. Tye direct up to 2 1/2 - 3 oz. after that I'll use a shock leader". So, from the reel, you are going with a shock leader, then to 17# mono, then the plug? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the shock leader? Risking loosing the plug right at the 17# line?

I don't know why I'm having such a problem understanding this. Just some sort of strange "leader disconect" on my part.

I should have pointed out from the start that my question is strictly for casting off the beach with a spinning reel - if that makes any difference.

My thought from all of this so far is to use a 40 or 60# floro shock leader tied directly to the plug? Thoughts?

Again, thanks for the input guys.
 
#5 ·
Howie,
You're not alone. I currently use 50# PowerPro and I see no reason why I would add a leader to that. I Currently tie on directly to my line unless Im chunking or Live lining. I guess maybe I just don't see the reasoning behind adding the bulk of 50# mono or flouro to my rig making it difficult to cast. Maybe I just dont know enough about these fish to get it... Maybe someone can enlighten the both of us.

BryanL
 
#6 ·
First off.
Keep it simple.
A shock leader protects the leader/line knot from the load of the cast which is more punishing than anything a fish might do.
I dont use shock leaders unless i have excessive weight or whole fish for bait because of the difficulty getting the double uni or the albright knots through the top guides. If your just tossing eels, clams or cut bait with up to 6 ounce sinkers and dont need extra distance there is definately no need for a shock leader.
My bait and wait rig is a fishfinder with a 4 ounce sinker on the standing line whether it be braid or mono. A 90 to 130 pound barrel swivel tied to 24 to 30 inches of 30 to 50 pond mono/ flouro leader with a 6/0 to 10/0 octopus, baitholder or circle hook.

The plug rig will vary depending on circumstances and conditions. Less harware the better. A duolock swivel for quick changing or metal plugs to keep them from spinning.

I tie directly to the line (sometimes I use a duo lock swivel) unless using a teaser. A teaser will be pre rigged on 30 pound mono on a dropper loop and tied to a barrel swivel on the standing line with the plug on the terminal end using a rapala knot.
StriperJim - are you using a shock leader AND the 3 foot leader when Blues are hitting? Test?
I use 2 1/2 feet of 50 - 60 pound mono with circle hooks. No shock leader.
I hope this is easier to understand. Remember there is more than one way to do this. The idea is to present the bait naturally and bring it in without your line or knots failing for whatever reason. Many big fish are lost because the fisherman doesnt have a spot where he can properly land the fish.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!!
 
#7 ·
h, if you're targeting blues and don't care about bass go ahead and run wire.
if you're chunking for bass and there's blues around (usually are) for me
20# mono with a few feet of 50# pound big game as a leader. the 50 will stand up to a couple of tug o wars with the toothy ones.

if you're runnun braid (pluggin) try and stay with a leader that is the same diameter or smaller than your main line. (ex.50 powerpro is roughly the same as 16lb mono or floro. try freein that braid from a snag and you'll be glad your leader is small enough that you can break free before your rod does.

up here in our neck of the woods (ri, ct) there's very little open sandy beach type fishin so the leader is kind of abrasion break off insurance.

the shock leader? i may be wrong on this but i think unless you're tossin 8 (oz)n bait off a conventional on a 12' rod you probably won't need it.
 
#8 ·
Thanks guys, I really appreciate all of the input.
Keep it simple - that's right on! I'm just over thinking this too much.

I have a new pack of 50# floro, so I'm thinking about using that as a shock leader and just tying right off to it with my rigs/plugs as well. Extra insurance when casting and the heavy duty line on the end. Kills two birds (fish) with one stone and doesn't have the extra knots to deal with.

That just seems too easy, so if someone could tell me why that would be a bad set up I'd appreciate it. I'm guessing that it may have something to do with not enough feel while plug'in.

Thanks again.
 
#9 ·
I spool with 17 and tie direct up to a 2 1/2-3/ oz lure.
Over that, I tie on a shock leader (to prevent crack offs) and tie the shock direct to the lure.
I DO NOT USE BRAID. (I've issues with it)

Note on "can they see it".
Shure (or probably). But, how many times have you looked at something and not really seen it?
Water clarity pays a big part too. In a rocky surf (where I'd use the heavier leader) visibility is less than in a pond (where I'd not use a leader or shocker).
Not an "Always do" thing,,,, it's more of a right time / right place thing.
 
#10 ·
let's first address the issue of braid to leader (fluorocarbon) some fluoro is harder to tie to braid than others (depending on brand of either one) 30lb braid to 50lb fluoro will be harder than 65lb braid to same in (different knot applications). since we don;t have specific hands on here we have to first use the trial and error system ie; lose some break some method i suppose lol:icon_stirthepot: however, a modified albright (crazy alberto aka simple simon) is great for varying line diameters but sometimes in the event of a slippery fluoro like seagar to fireline may require a plain albright and i'd even go so far as to suggest an improved blood knot but i personally don;t trust that knot. if you tie a knot that in the slightest bit makes you uncomfortable with it then it;s probably gonna fail so imo the best way is to tie a few different knots with what your working with and see what FEELS like it is the best one for the job. if you use 30 or 40lb braid then 30-40lb fluoro is sufficient. just cause it is 40lb doesn;t mean a 50+ lb fish can break it. with a good drag it is fine imo. but i somehow would prefer mono for plugging (my preference) 2 cents ROC????



 
#11 ·
Errr, I must be getting narrow minded :trout:, my above post was with the mindset of conventional (sorry).
There is a big difference between conv. & spinning. As implied by the "spinning" reel title,, you should use a swivel to offset the effects of spinning with the spin reel. And that could justify the use of a main line, to shock leader, to swivel, to working leader, to lure.
My ooops! I've been conventional so long I forget all about the spin guys.:giggle:
Again, this is with Mono,,,, I'm not a Braided guy.
 
#12 ·
Nice! Thanks guys.

Final decision - since I'm not planning on throwing anything real heavy, I'm going to START without a shock leader on my plug rod and go with a few feet of the fluro leader tied to the main line (mono) with a swivel.

I'll set up a second rod with bait and sinker running a leader from the rig to a swivel that I may tie off to a shock leader.

Keeping it simple and changing up based conditions and what is working/not working.

I'll be on the beach in southern Maine all of next week. The waters can be pretty choppy at times, so I'm not real concerned with the "visual aspect" that started this thread. Again, I'll change up based on conditions.

Thanks again. I'll report back next week.
 
#13 ·
I've posted this same info a dozen or more times, I guess one more wont hurt....

I am a big believer in lighter lines for bass...they do get to be line shy...but I'm a firm beleiver that alot of times when people say they arnt getting hits, the reason is the line....when I can make the same EXACT run another boat is making, and I get a fish on every pass, while they go fishless with the same bait... some thing gives.

If for no other reason, the lighter leader gives the bait or lure more flexability...thus better action.

For trolling, I use 60lb braid on my conventionals, to this is coupled via an albright knot 10' of 40lb yo-zuri hybred....now, Zim has made a VERY good point, the albright knots effectivness is directly related to the type of line it is tied to, mono or floro with a hard finish might be great for abrasion resistance, but it is horrible for knot strength.... this brings me back to the yo-zuri... it's not the most abrasive resistant line on the market, but it's knot strength when tied to braid is outstanding, I coat the knot with a little Plio bond or Sally hansen hard as nails nail polish to make it smoothe.. to the shocker I tie 18" of 25lbtest Ande mono as my leader,this stuff is as abrasion resistant as it gets...... the drags are set at 5lbs, a little less than 1/4 the breaking strength of the leader......this combo is more than strong enough to land any bass that swims in the sea.. I change the shocker leader every night when I'm fishing rock piles and clam beds.. on the beach it will last all season... I'd rather re tie 10' of shocker at the start of each night than cut 10' off my expensive braid....

On my spinning reels, I use mono, 15 lb test on my own, 20 on my spares that are used by other people, the drags are set at 4lbs for the 15, 5 on the 20, I still employ the #25 leaders, i'll go to 20 when the fishing gets difficult and check the leader after EVERY fish, which I do anyway....

The ONLY time anything as heavy as #50 leader needs to be employed is in big surf or when dragging fish over rock piles...

Matching the gear to the outfit and setting the drag to 1/4 of the breaking test of the line will solve most of the break off problems, there is absolutlyu no excuse to be spooled by a bass.... most reels used for bass hold at least 200 yds of 20lb test.. thats two foot ball fields.....
 
#14 ·
knew you;d be here. i posted a lengthly response and lost it. only thing to add is that the braid will "dig in" to the leader/ this knot HAS to be tied right the first time as tight as it will be when the hook is set. if it is loose when you set the hook it tightens up and has a chance to cut the leader as the shock will provide you with this. this is one of the very reasons braid spooks people away. the shock factor and resistence will kill ya if ya don;t treat every application with attention. breakoffs are rarely from factory defects with braid as the process is pretty straight forward with all of them but it does happen. mystery breaks are those things that inspection of line and knots are flimsy by the fisherman at best.



 
#15 ·
i have to agree..i have had bad experience with power pro..."mystery" break offs...however, i have a feeling there was something i may have overlooked....either a knick in the line..or a weak knot...something had to contribute to the break offs other than power pro just simply being crap line...but on the advise of a friend i gave the fireline a go...and its now on my freshwater gear too..it has never failed me..although a bad knot early this season, and a too light leader in rocky conditions did...lessons learned...back to the point..even though the switch has improved my confidence in my line...i believe the bad experience improved my "attention to gear" skills...now more than ever i check my line for abbrasions..my knots for strength and more frequently than ever..i also feel more in tune with my gear..i am able to identify when somethings just not right with every cast and retrieve...i guess its part of the learning process...the spinning set up i use the most from the surf is 20lb fireline with a snap. the plug gets attached right to the snap...the fireline chrystal is supposed to be near invisible.. ive caught fish on plugs this way...when i switch to pluggin eels i simply snap an 18-24 inch 20 or 30 lb florocarbon leader on....to compensate for not having a shock leader i set my drag to 4lbs..instead of 5lbs..if i really need to, i got it figured out that three clicks brings me up to a few ounces under 5lbs. i dont like the way knots go through my guides from the surf, thats why i dropped the shock leader from the beach..however, from time to time in "too" rocky areas i will tie on a 40lb shock leader simply for insurance..thats when i use the 30lb floro leaders, extra insurance. from a boat i usually use a shock leader...roc's method and set up is something he has fine tuned over the years...theres no reason for me not to follow suit...a few times i skipped the shock leader...but had no "big" fish to prove anything....although when big fish are about, ide rather know my gear is good to go..ill stick to rocs methods...
 
#16 ·
Your right Zim.. I am here.. it absolutly drives me nuts when I see line getting blamed for bad mechanics,.... and thats all it is... most fisherman dont take the time to practice tieing knots, and when they do tie them it is usually rushed, if I'm not happy with a knot, if all the coils are not laid PERFECLY along side one another, I re do the knot...


I check my line constantly, and if I find a section that is at all frayed or rough I will cut it back, even in the middle of a blitz.... honestly, how many anglers out there will do that.. thats probably the biggest raeson I get pictures instead of telling fish stories....and braid does get knicked and frayed.....

Fishing isnt just about catching fish, it requires alot of time and effort to be continualy sucessfull, and maintaining and inspecting gear is part of it, learning how to tie more than 1 or two knots is part of it, I can tie probably 20-25 usefull knots, I can tie 4 different snells, out of those 25 or so knots I use about 6 on a regular basis, the others are used for special conditions or when 90-100% knot strenght is not an issue.. show me an angler that is proficient in tieing knots, and I'll bet that same angler is a VERY good fisherman....
 
#17 ·
I was going to post this question in a new thread but it seemed like it kind of fit here...

My job allows me to work from home 1 day each week so I spent this past Tuesday "working" on my knots. Tying mono, I had been pretty comfortable with a few of the basic knots and they've held up well. I picked up some braid this week to see what it is all about and found I need to practice a bit more!

So, I think I have the improved clinch and palomar down but am having trouble getting the albright to hold when I tie 20# Power Pro to the 20# Spider Wire mono (which will be used as the backing). It "looks" good but when some force is applied it will slowly slip out. Same problem when I put the PP with 50# floro leader...

I saw in some old threads where people had used glue and/or the Alberto knot. Would you recommend either of these instead of an albright? Or is there something I can do to make the Albright more secure?

thanks!
 
#18 ·
Speaks, how many wraps are you applying on the allbright knot?
are you using a lock?

My standard is 25 turns on the knot( I beleive the originator of the knot recomends 21), 3 turns on the lock....cinch that lock up good and tight, as you tighten the lock, be sure to roll the wraps as the knot tightens, it's important to get the wraps tight and close... apply a littl nail polish to the braid when you finish....
 
#19 ·
ah, that may be the problem. I've only been doing about 10 turns. I may not have been using a lock as I'm not sure what that would be! haha Is it the loop you pass the line back through after you've finished the turns? I've been using Grog's as my reference.
 
#20 ·
the lock is appied the tag end of the braid that has been passed through the loop, once you tighten the wraps of braid that are around the mono, be sure they are they are tight, then take the tag end of braid and make a loop around the braid and wrap it three times, pull the tag end slowly being sure to roll the wraps as you go, if done correctly, this will lock the end of the mono loop and secure the wraps of braid, trim close and add a drop of Sally hansen hard as nais nail polish of a small drop of plio bond.....
 
#21 ·
great, I'll give that a shot when I get home. COLAD and I are planning to head out tonight so it'd be awesome if I could get this to hold...I'm anxious to try out the new line!

Hey COLAD, do me a favor? Steal some nail polish from Jess when you have a second. :redbiggrin:

thanks for your help!
 
#22 ·
ah, let me guess?
A-snell
B-albright/modified as well
C-centauri
D-lindeman
E-knowing you (a sliding snood)
F-nail knot
G-slim beauty
i'd have added the uni/grinner and palomar but i somehow think you too advanced for that as i use the grinner when it;s dark and i;m not as profficient as yourself tying at night and i live on the edge.:whistle:



 
#23 ·
Reporting Back

Well my week up on the coast of Maine came and went, so I figured I'd give a quick recap and let you know how it went - after all of the help/words of wisdom, that's the least that I could do.

We had great weather, and while I didn't get to spend as much time as I would have liked fishing, there were some highlights.

THE highlight;

* Got up for my first real morning of hitting the surf a little befor 5. The sun was just coming up as I was driving along the road next to the beach. I stopped the car a few times to scope out a good location and take a few pictures. To be perfectly honest, it was such a beautiful scene that I wasn't in too much of a rush to get down to business.
At one point I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me. 'Is that a bunch of seaguls going nuts on the water'. Closer inspection revealed exactly what I've been reading about and dreaming of, white water and a feeding frenzy. I almost crapped myself. Panic set in when I realized that there was no safe, or relitively safe way to get down to the beach, so I drive up a little to find another way in. When I finally do get down to the beach I can't see anymore action, so I just start getting myself set up hoping that they may move back my way.
At this point I'm getting set up and enjoying the sun rise when some dude walks by and starts ranting about the big school that I'm missing 50 yards down the beach. I see it! He's yelling "get out there, just start plugging, what are you waiting for, go man"! So I get over to the area and start casting, but they are way too far out. I should note at this point for anyone who is not familiar with the coast of Maine in early September at 5:30 am, it's not exactly warm. The excitment gets the best of me and before I know it I'm heading into the water - jeans, sweatshirt, and all (I did have the sense to kick me sneakers off). I get a few feet out and think 'crap! my wallet'. So now I'm wadding out and casting with my wallet in my mouth. All this and they are still way too far out. I eventually head back to shore.
I'm already wet and cold, so I figure F-it I might as well keep going. Well worth it!
Within the next hour I nab my first striper ever (high/low rig with sandworms)! Not a big one, but tons of fun to bring in, and I was celebrating on that beach like I hit the lottery. I'd like to say excactly how big, but in my haste to get down to the beach I left the scale in the car. So after a little kiss, yes I did, I got her back down into the water and watched her take off. Awesome!!!
Before the cold finally took over and I was shaking too much to tie a line I caught two more about the same size.
That morning made my week/summer.

Sorry about the long post. I know most of you who have been catching the big fish for years aren't all that interested, but the excitement of the day still gets the best of me.

I'm hooked!

Thanks for all of your help.

H
 
#25 ·
Congratulations Howie. cool_blue.gif Believe it or not, we love to see guys get their first fish. Fishermen
here and elsewhere give of their time and knowledge freely just to see things like this
happen. It is almost as much fun as catching one yourself.
You learned what you could, put your time in and were as prepared as possible.
We trust that you will respect nature and the environment and impart good habits to
other guys you fish with and future fishermen.
Congratulations on your catch and may this be the beginning of many, many more.
WTG! thumbsup.gif
You may be investing in a pair of waders soon enough. lol
 
#26 ·
Congrats on the fish... I got mine up in Maine at the Popham gathering and it was a thing of beauty... I too kissed it ala Jimmy Houston... Maybe it will bring some more luck.

Congrats again
bryan
 
#27 ·
congrats on the fish Howie. thumbsup.gif
I have a question about leaders too. I recently employed a 50 lb flouro leader, 3 feet of it before my plugs in case blues were around last time I was out. I usually never use a leader and snap directly to the plug. I noticed tho that my plugs were not working the same with this leader setup. A danny for instance was riding under the surface, nose was pointing down at rest as if the leader was too heavy for it. Was the length too long?
 
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