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  #16  
Old 11-19-2007, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

My (obviously somewhat shaky) memories of high school physics formulas aside, the issue is still that the braid is over running the guides.

Can you post a picture of the rod showing the first 3 guides ?
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  #17  
Old 11-20-2007, 03:39 PM
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khary23 khary23 is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Quote:
Originally Posted by CABCAF View Post
Force = mass times acceleration........F=ma


Velocity = distance/time

The velocity component is contained in the (a) acceleration variable. If the force is the same, a larger mass means the acceleration would decrease, not increase.





Say you casted with a force of 100 ft/lbs.....


100 ft lbs= 4 oz times (a) >>>>>>>>100=4a >>>>>>>a= 25


vs 100 ft lbs= 6oz times (a)>>>>>>>>100=6a>>>>>>>>>a= 16.6667




Doesn't this prove the acceleration is less with a larger weight than a smaller weight if the force remains constant? It is clear that the 'a' variable has to be smaller when a mass of 6 is used instead of a mass of 4.

Velocity is actually the change in distance/change in time

Your sorts right about the acceleration, but the system is more complex than that. what you also have to take in to consideration are the energy aspects of the problem.
You have more potential energy stored in a 6oz weight then a 4oz weight. This potential energy is transferred to the rod as the rod is loaded (the rod can be modeled as a spring) the rod wants to regain a state of equilibrium so will rebound with as much energy as is put into it. This is multiplied by the length of the rod. This energy is a combination of the potential energy of the weight plus the energy you put into the system. Now the potential energy of the weight that is stored in the rod changes to kinetic energy as you continue to cast. Though you have more initial acceleration with a lighter weight there is less energy being put into the system and hence less energy that is changed to velocity so you end up with a slower end velocity. Think of it as conservation of energy.
I have to finishing packing for VA, but I will try and clean up this explanation a little bit when I get some time.
It can get kinda complicated because you are dealing with not just projectile motion, but also rotational motion , and work -energy, all these have to be solved component wise then put together.
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2007, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

My friend, get a stiffer rod.
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  #19  
Old 11-23-2007, 05:02 PM
CABCAF CABCAF is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Quote:
Originally Posted by khary23 View Post
Velocity is actually the change in distance/change in time

Your sorts right about the acceleration, but the system is more complex than that. what you also have to take in to consideration are the energy aspects of the problem.
You have more potential energy stored in a 6oz weight then a 4oz weight. This potential energy is transferred to the rod as the rod is loaded (the rod can be modeled as a spring) the rod wants to regain a state of equilibrium so will rebound with as much energy as is put into it. This is multiplied by the length of the rod. This energy is a combination of the potential energy of the weight plus the energy you put into the system. Now the potential energy of the weight that is stored in the rod changes to kinetic energy as you continue to cast. Though you have more initial acceleration with a lighter weight there is less energy being put into the system and hence less energy that is changed to velocity so you end up with a slower end velocity. Think of it as conservation of energy.
I have to finishing packing for VA, but I will try and clean up this explanation a little bit when I get some time.
It can get kinda complicated because you are dealing with not just projectile motion, but also rotational motion , and work -energy, all these have to be solved component wise then put together.

yep, I kinda figured it out for myself this past weds. I was not taking the loading of the rod into account. The greater initial acceleration of the smaller weight is more than offset by the better loading up to some point(the sweet spot)


I have a rod that will throw 6 to 12 so this rod will be a lobber.
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  #20  
Old 02-18-2008, 10:31 AM
wiperforever wiperforever is offline
 
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Hey Cabcaf...

I didn't read all the responses that you have been given...but...am having some of the same problems.

I have one rod that is more medium and another that is heavier. The med rod I am having a birds nest happen in the line as it goes out. Most likely the same as your experiencing. The heavier rod I have no issues.

Just a thought.
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  #21  
Old 03-27-2008, 04:55 AM
ReelinRod ReelinRod is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

Guide wraps are a product of limp braid at high velocity, large (typical spinner) guides and tip whip. A mono shocker only exacerbates the problem as its stiffness screws itself through the large guides imparting those curls on the braid. Large guides don't throttle the line fast enough, the braid "blows-by" a guide and with the tip whip in the upper part of the rod a hitch is formed and zing-pow, you've got a guide wrap.

One thing that would stop many of the guide wraps is to use braid as a casting leader; typically I have 20lb running line and then 65lb to 100lb braid joined with a spider hitch to back to back uni's. My distance fishing rods have lowrider guides and these totally eliminate guide wraps (and also eliminate the use of a 60lb+ mono shocker).

The easiest fix if you want to stick with braid would be to move up in line diameter and lose the shocker. I would spool with 50lb or 65lb braid and run it straight to your terminal rig. That should do away with 99% of your guide wraps. The heavier line isn't as susceptible to blow-by and tip whip entanglements.
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

i don;t ever fish braid without a mono leader/ it;s done but not by me. i have had 65# braid snap from either initial hooksets or the venerable (screw up cast) which i can honestly say i have done from time to time with very little chuckles and wtf;'s but i don;t have a problem ever wrapping the guides as my leader is only about 30in long and it is not for the intended purpose of getting her on the leader but just as a {shock leader} not casted from within the rod and i never lose a fish this way and with no give at the beach it is imo easier for her to roll and pull the hook from the braid than the mono which has a little bit of give (not much but enough). alot of people use just braid to the business end but live and learn i say. i know, not good for the rod tip but i don;t wanna lose that large fish to frugal thinking. nice explanation btw. most people don;t know how to cast to begin with and between this and the bad habits they learn it could frustrate the best of men/



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  #23  
Old 03-29-2008, 12:50 AM
ReelinRod ReelinRod is offline
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

When I said "terminal rig" I meant whatever one would use at the end of the braid . . . My bait rig's main strand is about 4 feet long from top swivel to sinker and made of 80lb mono. My leader if I was to be chucking metal or big plugs would also be about 4 feet long and 50lb or 60lb mono.

What you are using is not a "shock leader;" a shock leader is the length of the rod plus your drop and 5 - 8 wraps around the spool. For a 13' rod that would be over 20 feet long. Also, at the running (main) line break strength you are using (65?), getting a braid guide wrap would be a very uncommon happening no matter how hard you are casting.

What I'm discussing is the very high line velocities when using light braid (20lb - 30lb max) on long rods (typically over 12 feet) throwing 5 - 7 ounces. . . This is an occurrence that begins plaguing you once you are cracking the 500 foot mark with a typically rung spinning rod. Casts that fall short of that don't generate the velocity required for a guide wrap unless the rod has a very active tip.
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  #24  
Old 03-29-2008, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Line wrapping around guide during cast

i know what it is. i modified my line to fit my desired need. i know what your talking about but mentioning what i do it for. i do like the lighter braids but don;t fish waters that often which warrants me to get out that far. my mag 525 wasn;t that braid friendly for the reasons you posted with the rod i was using. which again was another good explanation btw. need to pair up the right rod with the right reel/line. glad you had the patience to go over that in such a way. alot of the other sites and forum posters get cranky and annoyed at questions and banter. we pride ourselves at catering to the lesser equipped/knowlegeable/ and that includes yours truly.



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